Tess Frame: Podcast Interview w/ Kaelynn
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[00:00:00]
tessframe: I also think it's helpful to look at, like look at people in the church that you trust. Are they business owners? they... You know, we have a physician, we have a judge, we have business owners. They've all written books that are sold at Deseret Book that
is not a church-owned company.
As far as I know, it's not a church-owned company. So I'm like, it's pr- privately owned and it's,
Kaelynn Priest: definitely for-profit.
tessframe: profit,
Kaelynn Priest: Mm-hmm
tessframe: yeah, they're, they make money off their books, but they are in a, serving in a leadership capacity. And also, again, it's a physical product that costs money to make. Recovering cost is fine, and making a profit is fine.
Kaelynn Priest: Yep
tessframe: that's not inherently evil. Where it crosses over to greed, you become, you let something begin to control you and control your motives and change your motives. But like, these people are serving in massive capacities free, for the benefit of the [00:01:00] world. And, you know, so I try to just look at examples like that, that kind of can give you a clue into like how to calibrate your your line of like what's okay and what's not.
Kaelynn Priest: I'm bringing Tess Frame back to the show, and this time we are talking about a little bit of a different topic than you may have heard us talk about last time. When Tess and I were recording her first podcast episode, we wrapped up and she was like, "You know what I would really love, would be to share with LDS women how to wrap your brain around monetizing your audience, even if your audience is primary, primarily LDS."
It's something that not very many people talk about and is kind of a unique thing to navigate, especially with all that we've been taught about, quote-unquote, priestcraft, which we're gonna talk about at length today, and how she and I both feel absolutely no guilt selling amazing offers that provide value to people and help people build their businesses and strengthen their families.
So if you've ever felt a little bit at [00:02:00] odds with feeling like if you have an LDS audience, like you can't sell anything or you can't monetize anything, I really hope this podcast shifts your perspective a little bit. And then at the very end, we also talked about some of our favorite ways to monetize your audience if you do have an audience that's a pretty good size or if you want to grow an audience on Instagram.
So I'm so excited to bring you her perspective and lived experience, and also my perspective, which is that it's a really good thing when women know how to make more money, and we wanna help you do that. So without further ado, here's my interview with Tess
Okay, so I've got Tess with me. As you guys probably know, hopefully know by now if you've been listening to the show, Tess has the best, like, content creation personality. One of my favorites on Instagram. And she also has a pretty sizable audience that she's grown very quickly in a pretty short amount of time, if I remember right, Tess.
tessframe: Yeah.
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah
tessframe: I guess that's not totally true. I spent [00:03:00] a little bit of time growing in kind of a more domestic topic area, just motherhood, general home- homemaking. And then I pretty abruptly switched gears and was like, "I gotta only talk about church stuff.
Kaelynn Priest: உம்
tessframe: flavor now." And since I started doing that about a year ago, I've grown a lot.
I've, like, doubled. So
Kaelynn Priest: cool
tessframe: I'm like, "Okay, that's my niche,
Kaelynn Priest: Yep. So good. And so one of the reasons why I wanted to bring Tess on as my resident expert in the topic about how to navigate monetizing an account if your audience is primarily LDS. I don't get this question a lot from people, but I'm sure people are thinking it. It's one of those where they're like, I can hear the questions in their head even though they don't come out their mouth, where they're like, "How do you feel okay about this?
How do you feel okay about charging people money for things and talking about the gospel? Like, isn't that... Well, is that weird? Is it?" I'm like, so you and I started this conversation [00:04:00] recently where neither of us feel weird about it, and I feel like we should talk about that. I feel like we should share it with the people, especially because a lot of people, not everyone, has an audience that is primarily LDS.
But if you do, or maybe if you don't, this will still be helpful and interesting to you. So Tess, why don't you first start off by telling me if... Did you have that awkward moment where you're like, "Is this okay?" Or if you didn't, walk us through how you feel about it
tessframe: Okay. I remember... Do you remember John's song Tiny Dancer? Jesus freaks sell- handing tickets out for God. There- this was, like, a thing in the '70s that, like, people would sell tickets to heaven, and it was, like, kinda this understood thing that, like, it's just a joke. It's just kind of a hustle. but I remember hearing that and being like, "That feels inherently wrong to me, to trick someone and tell them that the only way into heaven is for them to pay." And that, [00:05:00] that goes along with, like, the works-based salvation concept, that, like, you cannot earn salvation. It h- it is a cost you could've never, ever paid for yourself, which was why somebody else did it, so stop trying. But also, where's the ethics of earning money around faith stuff? So for my f- for my belief- Priestcraft, I think, is the word that people use, where it's kind of a, a blurring of the lines of and money-making, but in a way where it's like you are-- you're either intentionally deceiving
people or you're selling things that are, like, critical pieces of knowledge that they need to know.
Like, You're placing critical information behind a paywall. So obviously, it's like, "You wanna take the missionary discussions? Well, we're having a nice show here. Buy your ticket." It's like no. No, that's free. You don't pay to get baptized. You don't pay for a Book of Mor-..." Like, we will give you everything you [00:06:00] need for free. So for me I don't have any reservations about what I do because I feel like I have a strong understanding of what is okay to list and what is something that should be available for
free. Anything that I'm offering behind a paywall is something that I created myself or that is, like, if it's, like, a story, if it's, like, a paid Substack post or, you know, a subscription blog or something it is information about my life and my experience that I think would be more respected.
Th- part of the reason you put things behind a paywall too is that it's a barrier to keep out people who are not gonna treat you with respect. So part of it is I've got delicate parts of my story that I don't wanna just share with anybody parts of my story that really would advance somebody in their financial life.
Or it's a product. It's a physical product that I've created or a digital product that [00:07:00] I've created. So it has-- there's work. There's effort there, and it's not something that I think would be classified as missionary work. This is not work that... Which I do all the time
Kaelynn Priest: Totally
tessframe: So I'm like I feel like, for me, I have a pretty strong instinct of where that boundary is.
But for people listening, I would say the boundary is probably just, is this something that the church offer this for free? If so, you should not charge for it. If it is your experience or your expertise or your product creation, I think can be a payment,
a transaction
Kaelynn Priest: I love the idea of, like, intellectual property. Like, is the Book of Mormon my intellectual property? Absolutely not. But are some of the principles and adaptations and things that I've learned from it, from my own brain and heart? Yes. And so, you know, like, I might be the perfect example of this.
As you know, I'm teaching these live workshops, and I'm charging tickets [00:08:00] for them, and I feel absolutely no guilt about that, partially because my audience is business owners, and so my intention is that they will take this information and then go multiply whatever small amount they invested in this conversation, that they will gain something that will open a door in their brain, that will give them an idea, that will give them some kind of inspiration or relief that will make it so that they can go create more money.
So,
tessframe: Mm-hmm.
Mormon me.
Kaelynn Priest: Yes, exactly. Like,
tessframe: No, I'm saying Mormon me.
Kaelynn Priest: More money.
tessframe: joke. It was a bad dad joke.
Kaelynn Priest: Okay, but this is crazy. I was reading the Book of Mormon this morning, and just happened to be in 2 Nephi 26, which talks about priestcraft. And I was like, "I am opening to this page and leaving this open for this conversation." I also think that sometimes as saints we take something and we make a really hard line in the sand where God sort of intended it to be, like, a gentle reminder, and I think these verses are the perfect example.
You'll understand what I mean in a [00:09:00] second. So this is 2 Nephi 26. I'm gonna read verse 29 and 30. It says, "He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts, for behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world, but they seek not the welfare of Zion.
Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing. Wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love, and except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the la- laborer in Zion to perish." And so, like, this verse is the perfect example, I think, of, like, we have taken our own adaptation and turned it into meaning you can't make money doing anything that has God's cause attached to it.
But what he's actually saying is that the problem is when men set themselves up for a light unto the world.
tessframe: Yeah. So it's almost like it's not even about the money, it's about the recognition
Kaelynn Priest: exactly. [00:10:00] The recognition this verse says, like, the praise of the world, which I think is another great way to put it. And so it's like that is not the intention, and it's one of those things that you... It's not one of those things you can really know unless you are the person creating the thing.
tessframe: Yes.
Kaelynn Priest: there's not a hard line in the sand.
I do think it's very something that you can receive through personal revelation. Is this okay, God? Is this me accile- accidentally trying to put myself, make myself the light, or is this me desiring to help make you the light for people to follow? And I think that distinction helps me a lot
tessframe: Yeah. I think that being an internal judgment that we make is... That's such an important thing to point out because we will look at... there are a, a lot of other markers that we look at for other people, standards that we hold other people to, where it's like, like modesty is a great one, where it's like modesty is actually not a measuring stick for you to use against other people.
[00:11:00] It is a measuring stick that you use internally to see how you are measuring up to the Savior. If as soon as you take it outside of yourself and you are holding that up to somebody else, you're using it wrong. You can recognize when somebody's, you know, you can recognize when somebody is not meeting your standard of modesty and f- what you feel is you're measuring up to the Lord and say, "Okay, that's not my line, but it's also not my position to police. This is a judgment that I make for myself." and I feel like maybe priestcraft kind of is adjacent to that, where it's
like I think we can really plainly recognize when people are seeking fame from it. What comes to mind is like the televangelism, the big- like showy televised revival type of situations where it's a huge production. They're having call centers so you can send money. Like feels a [00:12:00] lot less authentic of a religious experience to me, and there's a lot of fame involved in that. And I think we can kind of just measure that. Like I'm not gonna hate the person doing that. They probably actually started out with really great intentions. But I can recognize where that line got crossed and where I'm not going to cross that line. So it's not about me tearing them down and making sure they don't do it. It's about me making sure I don't ever cross that line.
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah. I actually think about this a lot. I, sometimes I like to, like, guess if I was not a me- if I had not known about the church since I was a young kid and had the opportunity to, like, learn about the church and possibly be a convert, what would be the thing that would, like, get me over the line? And I do often think about having a lay ministry for me would be like, oh my gosh, that makes so much more sense than the way some other churches do it, which is where you come, and you appreciate the things that are taught, and you invest in their livelihood with your financial [00:13:00] donations, which I'm not trying to make a comment about whether that's right or wrong or whatever.
But I do think that it's interesting that other faiths monetize their teachings and their sermons. And although our service, our ministry, in air quotes, is different, I think it's so cool that we have, that the leadership of the church, like the leadership of my ward, no one is doing this for any ulterior motive besides their love of God.
But to me, that leaves a lot of space open for, like, okay, so what are we gonna do to provide for ourselves financially and to make sure that we have the things that we need, like clothing and shelter and a car and transportation that all costs money? We have to do something in order to be able to pay the bills.
So I think about that all the time. I love that the church has unpaid service work that happens.
tessframe: Right. And I think the, the-- where you figure out what is a payable versus [00:14:00] a non-payable volunteer, you know, volunteer versus paid service that you're providing for people or product that you're providing for people is, does this... What am I trying to-- How am I trying to say it? That, That the, there is a recognition involved in the volunteer work, that it's, it...
Like, I minister to people in secret. I, you know, everyone does. And I'm not f- even saying that, I'm like, "Ew, don't say that." I am so good in secret. That's not what I mean. What I mean is we all operate on a local level, basically in secret. We work in our local communities, and we build up each other, and we do what is needed to be done, and it is all volunteer. are people who work for the church, who, where they do get their livelihood because they are contributing a professional service. So where, yeah, where does it cross the line from volunteer to professional? And, like, when can you say, "Actually, [00:15:00] that's, I don't do that for volunteer. I do ask for payment for that," or "I do want recognition for that."
Is it wrong to want recognition?
I'm like, I'm a published author. I'm a public Instagram, you know, person, speaker. So I'm like I actually enjoy recognition. I don't... say, if I had zero followers, I would still talk every
Kaelynn Priest: उम।
tessframe: I don't do it... I enjoy that people like what I'm saying, and they engage with me, and I'm creating relationships, and there are really cool conversations happening, and it makes it poss- because I have a growing audience, it makes it possible for me to sell things when I have a product to sell. But the recognition isn't the point. It is the connection, and it is the message. That message matters zero followers to me. I would still talk about it. So I don't know. It's a super interesting, like, ethical thing to figure out. Like, is there a hard line, or is it a personal line? Interesting.[00:16:00]
Kaelynn Priest: Mm-hmm. So good Do you feel like... Have you ever personally felt at odds with monetizing your content?
tessframe: I don't think so, because mine has always been so heavily steeped in my personal experience. I had... I shared this in my episode that I did with you a couple weeks ago, but I had a really crazy traumatic birth experience, and as soon as I got home from the hospital, I wrote it all down and I sent it to the church blog and they published it on their website. Because I was like, "I gotta share this. I have to share this testimony." There is no-- there was no money exchanged for that. That was me being like, "My faith grew so much, I have to share this, and I know that the widest group of people who understand and, share my worldview and my faith perspective are gonna be members of the church.
I'm gonna send it to the church and see
Kaelynn Priest: உம்
tessframe: it." And [00:17:00] they did. I feel like that was so my experience. They're not in the business of paying for testimonies. That was me saying, "I have to share this with people." That was like an an Alma the Younger moment where I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I cannot go another day without sharing my testimony."
You know? Not Alma the Younger like I was turning people away before, but just there was this massive awakening after my period of darkness, you know?
Kaelynn Priest: I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, especially if you're creating content, very rarely are you actually, like, paid upfront to create content. So it's like, I like to remind myself that I have paid offers where you can get even more value, you can get even more time, even more access to me. I don't technically have any right now, so I should say I don't really have any right now.
I have before in the past.
Yes, hypothetically, but also I- it is, like, a core value of mine that I do put out a large [00:18:00] volume of free content. So the, the hope is that you can enjoy the goodness and grow closer to the Savior, whether you're following me on Instagram or listening to my podcast. And if you want to go deeper, there are options and ways to do that.
But I'm like you, I've never felt any reservation doing that. I think it's probably because I come from just, like, a business background, where I just have such a strong belief in the value that I create for people, that I can create for people, that it's an exchange, right? Like, they offer me something, and I offer them something, and so I don't feel like I am hurting anyone or harming anyone by asking for the exchange of my time and my thoughts and my words for their financial investment
tessframe: Here's an interesting example. So on my website right now, I have my book. My book is available. It's a physical product that costs me money to produce. [00:19:00] Why should I offer that for free? You know? So there's one. It's a physical product. I think people really don't have a problem. There's... People really understand, like, a physical product.
I'm not selling the Book of Mormon, I'm selling my book that I wrote that took me eight years and $5,000 to produce. So yeah, it makes sense that I'm asking for money for that. But I had a post go viral. I created content. I don't create parenting content, by the way.
If you know my children, you know why. I don't do parenting content. I'm not qualified. My children are evidence of that. But I created a post where I talked about summer structure. I just said, "I'm raising three boys, and the only way I'm going to survive the summer is if we have a highly structured system in our home where everyone contributes, and there are a lot of strong boundaries around screen usage and how you treat other people."
Because we're feral in this house. We are the feral Franes. [00:20:00] I posted about that, and I shared, like, what tasks they have to do. This post went s- viral, super viral,
And I was like, "Crap," 'cause I don't talk to parents. I'm like, "Dang it, I don't want... I want church content to go viral. I want p- things to go viral that I normally talk about."
But then something went viral that I don't normally talk about, and I was like, "Oh, no, I just gained a bunch of followers that not here for my church content. They're here for my parenting content now, and I gotta figure out, A, how do I serve them? Do I leverage the views to my
advantage?" Which is normal. That's not
unethical to do. That's the nature of social media. And then also, how can I use this potentially as, like, a missionary opportunity? I've got all these people who are not members of my church who maybe have a lot of preconceived about my church. What can I do to represent that well through whatever little bits of parenting content I know? I guess I'm a parenting person [00:21:00] now. I guess that's what I do. So I rushed, and I created a guide with all my lists and all the whole structure. I articulated everything. I provided printables. I created this whole thing and got it up as fast as I could while this post was still going viral, and I listed it for, like, 14 bucks.
Like, not... Like, super low low purchase barrier. So it was not like a... You know the YAP Challenge? I don't know when this is
coming out, but the YAP Challenge was humongous.
Kaelynn Priest: Yep
tessframe: Such a massive offering. It was six weeks worth of daily content, plus, like, forums, and ongoing, and live things, and workbooks and I'm like, I created, like, a 15-page document, and I'm selling it for 15 bucks, 14 bucks. But I've sold some of them. I've sold maybe, like, 20 or 30 for 14 bucks. So, like, again, I made a little bit of money, but not, like, nothing I could live on. It's just a trickle as that post goes viral and just starts to taper off. But I rushed to create something that was gonna serve the people who [00:22:00] were there for that reason, leverage the views to my advantage because they are willing to pay for that kind of content, and use it as a missionary opportunity, and help people be better parents.
Kaelynn Priest: உம்.
tessframe: and now they feel like you are a strict mom, and you do have a strong structure, and you don't let your kids watch TV or play video games all day you're a good mom. There are other moms out there that are doing this. So there's a support element. You know, creating a product for people is not unethical.
So then when you look at it from a church perspective, if I was gonna do something similar On a church topic, say something goes viral and people are totally talking about it, people are super engaged in conversation in the comments, and I rush to create a similar product where I'm like, "Okay, is my 60-day little faith challenge that we're gonna do."
Or the 60 days is enormous. Let's say it's a two weeks,
two-week faith, 14-day challenge. Here is content you're gonna post every day. I'm gonna give you a calendar. I'm gonna give you [00:23:00] workbooks. We're gonna have two live sessions. We're gonna have lists that you can do, printables, ways you can involve your family.
Here's a couple lesson ideas to involve your family. It's like I'm creating all this work that is technically all church content. You could probably either find it or make it yourself for free somewhere. I mean, that's you... anything you get, you could make it yourself.
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah, exactly
tessframe: summer structure yourself.
Are you going to, or is it worth it for you to pay $14?
Kaelynn Priest: Yep
tessframe: why is it ethical and fine for me to make a parenting product but not a faith product?
Kaelynn Priest: Or why is it, you know, like you said could you technically go down the journey and create that result yourself? Technically, yes, but that's also why people invest in YAP Challenges. Like anyone can get a, a camera and a mic and start talking into it. There was some accountability attached to it.
There was some structure attached to it. That's what provided the value for people. That's what people are actually investing in. Like just the name, the YAP Challenge, I instantly know what the strategy's gonna be.
tessframe: [00:24:00] Mm-hmm.
Kaelynn Priest: all the like, "But what should I say, and when should I say it, and how should I say it?"
I think that's a perfect example for like if we can feel great and ethical about someone charging money for a course, which I fully support and absolutely think is awesome, why not the same for other principles that even if they're related to faith and spiritual concepts, like technically what we're investing in, like your workbook, your digital download is the perfect example.
I'm investing in someone taking the steps out of the process for me and figuring it out. I'm investing in accountability for something to actually hold my feet to the fire instead of just saying, "I'll just ChatGPT it," and then never doing anything. All of that is an exchange of value. It's like, it makes me think of like the, the verse in Ruth that's like, "And you lift me, and we lift each other, and we both rise together," is kinda what that makes me think about
tessframe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I also think it's helpful to look at, [00:25:00] like look at people in the church that you trust. Are they business owners? they... You know, we have a physician, we have a judge, we have business owners. They've all written books that are sold at Deseret Book that
is not a church-owned company.
As far as I know, it's not a church-owned company. So I'm like, it's pr- privately owned and it's,
Kaelynn Priest: definitely for-profit.
tessframe: profit,
Kaelynn Priest: Mm-hmm
tessframe: yeah, they're, they make money off their books, but they are in a, serving in a leadership capacity. And also, again, it's a physical product that costs money to make. Recovering cost is fine, and making a profit is fine.
Kaelynn Priest: Yep
tessframe: that's not inherently evil. Where it crosses over to greed, you become, you let something begin to control you and control your motives and change your motives. But like, these people are serving in massive capacities free, for the benefit of the world. And, you know, so I try to just look at examples like that, that kind of can give you a clue into like how to [00:26:00] calibrate your your line of like what's okay and what's not.
I feel like that helps.
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah.
tessframe: So
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah. I think about Deseret Book a lot actually.
Like,
It is absolutely for-profit just in case... Like you said, it is not owned by, it is not an official, like, entity of the church. Or what's the correct word for that?
tessframe: We they're affiliated, like they work together in a lot of ways, but the church I don't think owns the company.
Kaelynn Priest: Right
tessframe: does not own the company. So
Kaelynn Priest: And
If you talk to anyone who has created a product for Deseret Book, usually the arrangement looks like Deseret Book will carry your product and you get a, I think it's like less than a 10% royalty per product that sells. Correct me if I'm wrong
tessframe: in fact, it's atrocious. Yeah. You're making me think. I know because I tried
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah. Like, yeah
tessframe: I've looked into product production with them and I'm like, "Oh my gosh,
Kaelynn Priest: "Maybe [00:27:00] not."
tessframe: just sell it myself."
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah. And how cool that, like, that we can do that, right? Like, that we, that, you know, it's, it opens up this conversation about just, like, the economy changing, where you put phones in people's hands and all of a sudden you reallocate where the funds are available. Instead of having to go through a Deseret Book to publish a book, you have tons of options.
tessframe: use and take advantage of their network and their marketing and their production system, or are you willing to invest in some of that and maybe do more effort, but you reach your specific audience instead of Deseret's broader audience? know? So for me, that was an easy trade-off
because my book is meant very specifically for people who basically know me and like my content, and are interested in the same stuff that I'm interested in.
So what I've built on Instagram is very catered to... Like, I have built an audience who likes me, and they like my stuff, and they like what I make, and they're [00:28:00] interested in that.
Deseret is not that market. It's not that there might be some overlap, but in general, my, my engaged audience is gonna be a better realm, even though it does take more work on my part.
But I also then gain that percentage back
Kaelynn Priest: Exactly. There's the trade-offs, there's pros and cons. We're not trying to say don't ever sell a book with Deseret Book.
tessframe: pros and cons. There's
Kaelynn Priest: Exactly. It could be a strategic move to work with Deseret Book or to not, and it's cool that we even have the option to consider both, right?
tessframe: You just weigh out what your priority features are essentially
Kaelynn Priest: I also think books are another really good example. You know, let's take for example an LDS creator who maybe they have a book in Deseret Book, or maybe they don't. Maybe they're selling it on Amazon doing Amazon... Wow, what's the word? Like, direct print.
tessframe: Yeah, K- KDP. Kindle Direct
Kaelynn Priest: Direct publishing. I always have to think about it for just a second.
Kindle [00:29:00] Direct... Yes. Okay. Kindle Direct Publishing. I'm like, we should make another episode about how to do all of that. It's so interesting. But for example, you take an LDS creator who has taken, again, their intellectual property, which is this... You receive intellectual property for LDS content the same way you receive intellectual property if you're a chemist or an engineer.
You receive it through the Spirit, through inspiration, through God's intelligence. And so it's just the subject, like, topic is the only thing that's different. But whether you are selling it through Deseret Book or selling it on your own, I think that can give us another really helpful framework of like, okay, it's okay for me to take information that God has blessed me with and take the time and effort to put together and then sell for a profit without any guilt, without feeling bad, and actually to feel pretty great about that effort of the blessing that you have now [00:30:00] created for the people who get their hands on whatever you've created, whether it's in book form, like physical book sitting on a shelf, whether it's in digital product form like yours, whether it's in audio form and you do a paid podcast, whether it's a group experience and you're getting on Zoom calls with people and coaching.
There's a million ways that could look. But I think having that, like, tangible example can help our brains be like, "Okay, it's okay. This is a good thing. It's good for me. It's good for them. It's good for all of us. We all rise together."
tessframe: Yeah. Love that I'm curious what your thoughts are on the recognition element and, like, setting yourself up to be a light of the world.
We were asked to be a light on a hill.
Kaelynn Priest: Oh, that's so good
tessframe: Where does it change from right to wrong in that realm? And h- like, is it wrong to enjoy being a public figure, you know? [00:31:00] And like that you... You know, I would love... I threw a, a women's conference last October with Marla Gayle. We did the We Are Creators conference
Kaelynn Priest: So cool
tessframe: for LDS influencers and businesses. It was so fun. It was so much work, and I think I, I expanded my network so much because I'm working specifically with influencers and businesses.
So
Kaelynn Priest: Great
tessframe: got all these people with all these incredible gifts who need help from each other, and I'm making connections for people, and people are helping me, and I'm helping them, and it just was this awesome experience for me as an entrepreneur, as an LDS-specific entrepreneur, to, like, grow my network in that way, and I love it.
And I love that people remember me, and they recognize me from that, and they know that I'll help them, and, you know, the, like having a network where you are recognized, like, is that wrong? Is
that, there something unethical about that, and en- enjoying that and even seeking that?
Kaelynn Priest: [00:32:00] Interesting. That's a really good question. It makes me think about general authorities and church leaders who we all very much know by name, and we, like, read their biographies 'cause we wanna know all the details about their lives. And critics of the church would say, "Oh, they did, they are setting themselves up to be the person that we look to, the person that we follow."
But if you really understand the context and the story and the nature of the calling, it's like, that is absolutely not the case, right? So I think there's a little bit of like... it might be like the, The measurement analogy I love that you used about when you try to use the same measurement on someone else,
it's not fair because you have not received the personal revelation they've received
tessframe: Yeah, I-- thinking of the event, events and speaking is a really good for this because this is a... I mean, I don't know any industry [00:33:00] that doesn't have some kind of conference, some kind of public figures and speakers on the topic. Everyone has this, including, like, the, the volunteer and public church versus, like, even the private church speakers.
Like, Deseret Book had Time Out for Women, and there are paid speakers who have books, who sell books at the events, and they're recognized, and the people who throw the event are recognized. And then there's this, need an event director, and we know she's really good because she did that. Let's ask her."
And so then there's this merging and this more opportunities and career building. I don't see any of that recognition as wrong or s-
sinful or greedy.
Um, so you know, it's just an interesting thing to think about. And I'm, I don't personally have... I know where the boundary is for me, so I
don't find this, I don't find this problematic at least in the capacity that I'm currently Where I'm at right now is not bad. I don't feel that way. [00:34:00] I don't know. We'll see, though. She's corruptible. We'll see. No, but I don't have a problem with it, but what I... The reason I'm kind of playing devil's advocate on this question or presenting this question is because I think that there might be people who have a different perspective, and they might ask this question, or they might hear me talking about it and being like, "She's seeking fame.
She's greedy.
Kaelynn Priest: உம்
tessframe: there's conceit. There's..." You know? So I'm like, well, is there? I don't know. H- Can... H-How can you know that for another person?
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I feel like it's a useful intuition exercise, like a little gut check. Like, wait, let me just check really quick. Am I? S- 'Cause that's where it's hard, where it's like someone from the outside could judge you and say, "Of course she is," but that's not a fair judgment. I'll share this. My patriarchal blessing has a very specific warning in it that basically says, "Don't ever take credit for any of the knowledge or revelation or skills that I give to you, and always give [00:35:00] credit back to God."
So I'm oh, I just have two jobs to do. One is I'm going to create and share the content, I'm going to share my intellectual property in a lot of different formats, and I'll make sure to put, I was gonna say a disclaimer, that's not the word, a reminder to myself and to my audience that God has given me the things to speak for you as a sign of His love for you, as a sign of His trust in you, and we can all be grateful to Him for that blessing.
So I think that's my personal line of
tessframe: Your sources.
Kaelynn Priest: exactly. Like, I'm just gonna make sure that I say that often enough, and if someone wants to judge and say that I'm not, I will let them be wrong about me. But I do like that little quick little gut check reminder. And I also like your authenticity to be like, "Maybe I will mess up.
Maybe I will do it wrong. Maybe I will make a mistake. I'm a human. I'm allowed to do that, [00:36:00] and I'm allowed to be reminded by the Spirit when I'm not on the path He wants me to be on."
tessframe: Yeah, and I think because I work I do work hard to keep the Spirit with me and i-
Kaelynn Priest: Ja.
tessframe: my personal life, and I do... that closeness is something that I value a lot. So I do feel like if I feel chastised, you know, if I'm doing something wrong or overs- overstepping or my motive starts to evolve, I think that the Spirit will rebuke me a little bit.
So I... And I'm not afraid of that,
Kaelynn Priest: Ja
tessframe: you know? So I'm like, "I'm gonna proceed, and I hope that you'll bless and consecrate my efforts and help me bless other people and provide value for other people, whether it's volunteer or paid. If I overstep, or if I offend someone, or if something is, you know, skirts the line of like, should you be doing that in the church space?"
I feel like I have a fairly strong sense of that, so
I make the joke that I'm corruptible, but I'm like, "I probably won't ever do that."
Kaelynn Priest: I probably won't go way off the deep end. If [00:37:00] anything goes awry, I will correct it quickly because the Spirit won't let me not.
tessframe: Yeah
Kaelynn Priest: I have a question for you. I just got this message. I think this is totally related because something that you're saying and something that I feel like I'm saying is that I feel pretty good about being able to recognize the Spirit and w- hear God's voice in my life.
It's very rarely a voice. God actually speaks to me personally most through the scriptures. It's usually, like, text, and sometimes when I'm writing in my journal. But I got this message this week from a gal who was like, "How do you know if your business ideas are from God or if they're your own idea?"
Which we've heard this question asked to general authorities over the years, but I was like, "Oh, I hadn't really thought about how I would explain that in, like, a business owner context," because the ideas that I'm receiving aren't always necessarily like, "Pray more with your kids." Sometimes it's like, "Send the email to or, you know, "Invest in this product line."
Sometimes it's not always, like, a spiritual [00:38:00] idea that I get. I'm curious for you, if you could share with the listeners what you've done to get so good at recognizing the Spirit, or if you have any ways that you do recognize, like, that idea was from me or wasn't. How would you answer that?
tessframe: Well, I have like two avenues that I kind of am like, "Ooh, I wanna explore both of those." Okay, I'll answer your question directly. The way that I feel like I have received spiritual knowledge or revelation regarding what to do with my business was last year, when I decided to pivot my content to be LDS-specific, had been toying with that idea for close to a year.
So this was, like, two whole years ago. been toying with the idea because I co-own Happy Sacrament, an LDS children's toy company, essentially. And I was like, "How am I gonna help promote this stuff? Like, my audience is not built to [00:39:00] receive this product."
I wrote a book in which I reference the Bible all over the place, but also the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants.
So I'm like, "That's not really a general audience. That's a pretty specific audience." And I just was thinking about it, and one thing that I really think is that God is a logical God. And so you can follow actual natural breadcrumbs. It doesn't always have to feel like a big, the burning of the bosom
Kaelynn Priest: हम्म, हम्म।
tessframe: it is just the logical process of deciding "Oh, this is going to be the best thing." And you can pray about it and be like, "What is the, what's the next logical step? Can you inspire me? Can you deliver information that I need? Can you ma- help me make the connections, put people in my life?" You know, there's so many ways that you can pray for inspiration regarding business or professional moves that you're gonna make. But I am a firm believer that God is a logical God, and He gave us and intelligence and logic, and that is a gift for us to be [00:40:00] able to make some of those choices ourselves.
Sometimes we make the wrong choice, and there's, you know, you lose thousands of dollars, or you end up waiting six months because a product is delayed, or there's, you know, there's just personal or natural consequences to things that happen in business and out. So that, the one avenue is how I've experienced revelation, and then the other was that God is a logical God.
And I feel like in my history, I'm trying to think. So I gave the example of the Instagram account With the bread book, my bread book, I had the idea, this was alm- almost, this was 10 years ago now when I had one little boy who was two and I was very pregnant, the most pregnant anyone has ever been in fact. No one's ever been pregnanter actually than me when I was pregnant with that baby. It was a thousand years of pregnancy. I was just feeling kind of like I didn't h- just kind of floating, just kind of untethered. Like, not like I didn't know who I was or what, you know, I just didn't [00:41:00] have a project. I needed a project. And I had seen another blogger do a bread project that she called the 40 Day, for- 40, 40 loaves. And she baked 40 loaves in a year. And I was like, "I love that. I love that." That for her didn't have any religious significance, but for me it did.
Because 40 is a n- number representative of preparation and teaching.
And so I was like, "Okay, I do wanna learn how to bake bread. I wanna understand the process and the science. But also it's a very domestic and service-based thing that I can do for my family. It's, it's a way that I can slow down my food pro- my food chain, not be in fast food mode all the time." So I spent a year doing 40 loaves of bread, and I kept record.
I kept a document of all the loaves I baked and what went wrong and what recipe I used. I included links and pictures and notes and then at, towards the end of the year I s- I started considering [00:42:00] the spiritual significance of bread. And I, you know it's there. 40 loaves? To...
Kaelynn Priest: It's so good
tessframe: It's so spiritual.
It's so, biblical. And so I was like, "I'm gonna dive into that." And so I started looking more for some of those s- symbols throughout scripture. And I started coming up with this framework and maybe like every, I'm not even kidding you, every other year I would tap into this document and just tinker. So it was like very sparse work I had a couple different experiences where things would happen and I'm like, "Okay wow, that was a big trial. That was a crazy birth. That was this, this thing happened, that thing happened." And after my real bad birth, my third child, had this sense of urgency finish this book. I was like, I just went through probably the hardest, hopefully, I'll say hopefully the hardest thing. Hopefully there's not something worse than that in my future. But I went through the, probably the hardest thing that I had ever gone through it, for su- for [00:43:00] sure up until that point. And I, so I was separately writing down my experience with the hospitalization and the recovery for that. As I kept going, some of those symbols of bread kept coming into, like I was remembering and I was continuing to study scripture, and little things would just come up serving how bread is a community thing. Abraham feeds the people that come to his tent. Jesus Christ is a table for two. The sacrament is you and Jesus Christ having a
meal. And so I'm like thinking of all these things as I'm suffering. I'm learning how to use the atonement through this process because I just was really deeply in the throes of post-traumatic stress. And all of a sudden this explosion happened in my brain where I was like, these are the same book. I didn't realize, but the bread book and the, my story of my trauma and kind of a memoir are the same book.
And so I s- I had to almost start over and figure out how to clean it up and brai- braid it all together, it in a logical framework that made sense and was, would be readable. [00:44:00] And it took another several years for me to finish writing it, but I finally finished it. So it's like sometimes inspiration is this super slow burn and s- like it was for the bread concept, and then sometimes it is explosive and you realize immediately what you need to do to pivot.
Like for my Instagram account, it was like all of a sudden I was like, duh, I'm,
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah
tessframe: online. I'm the co-owner of this company. I need to be talking in the faith space. That's my mission. This is my mission right now. I didn't serve a mission. This is my mission. So I kinda just, you know, sometimes it's explosive. I definitely feel inspiration through scripture reading like you do and through journaling and processing through writing. I definitely also just Feel the feeling.
Kaelynn Priest: Das hört sich ja
tessframe: you just, it just hits you. It's just a thought. And I would say in most cases, if it's an idea, run it through the meat grinder.
I call it the meat grinder. If it comes out and it's still [00:45:00] usable as a business idea or as a that you wanna take in your business like m- meaning go through the financials, go through who's this gonna affect, who's this gonna serve, who's my target market, how, what's the process for making this, all of that.
Go through all of that. That's the meat grinder. You go through all of that, and if it's still at the end a good idea, that was the spirit. If
it's not a good idea then you know, the meat grinder is a great tool.
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah, exactly. I love that.
tessframe: So I feel like, yeah, I feel like the, the spirit is not gonna give you a bad idea. you need to logically decide, is this a good idea or a bad des- a
idea, you know?
Kaelynn Priest: I was thinking to myself, like, oh, when she asked that question, how do we know if it's for, from God or from you? I was like, I don't know if I ever have ideas that are just me, like in my own head.
Like, I just g- have kind of decided they're all from the Spirit. And I love the idea of the meat grinder.
If you guys only knew how many business ideas I've had that just died
tessframe: They don't go, yeah, they don't make it through the meat
Kaelynn Priest: eggs, they [00:46:00] don't make... I love that analogy so much.
tessframe: We get chewed up.
Kaelynn Priest: and it's not that like, oh, that was, that must have been my idea and that's why it was bad. It's like, eh, it was probably all from the Spirit. It's good for you to go through the exercise of
tessframe: is. Totally
Kaelynn Priest: deciding what you want, and is this feasible?
Is this going to require more from me than I'm willing to give right now? Yes or no? I think, like, you can gain so many nuggets of revelation through the process of the meat grinder too, that I've just kind of decided that it's all just God.
tessframe: still, and you learn from bad ideas. You
learn from failures. Like, you know? So I'm I don't know. I just, I live my life in a way that I trust that the Spirit's guiding me, and if something bad happens, that's okay. that's okay.
I was meant to
learn from that, or
that was just a consequence of my choice.
You know?
Kaelynn Priest: Yep. Yeah.
tessframe: So-
Kaelynn Priest: so glad you said that too. I think there's... I think for, based on what you just said and what I feel for myself too, I just have a very strong self-trust that it's [00:47:00] like, it was probably God and it's probably a good thing, so I'm just gonna go do it. You and I both connected on how we're both just like very fast action takers.
A couple things that I want to say. I mentioned this, if you haven't heard Tess's full delivery story, what do you call your story? Traumatic birth experience, birth trauma. Go back and listen to Tess's episode. It's episode number two. So good. Such a crazy, wild story. And second, I own the, Tess's book, Risen, and bought it like years and years ago before,
tessframe: Before the reprint?
Kaelynn Priest: time ago.
Yes, before the reprint. So I love it. It sits on my like console table. I see it every day. I open it multiple times a month just to read, and like the photos are gorgeous. I don't know if you have the same photos inside
version two. Okay, cool.
tessframe: redesigned
Kaelynn Priest: Cool. Redesigned, still gorgeous. So that's just my own personal plug for again, another amazing [00:48:00] product, intellectual property created by an LDS creator who I adore.
So I had to put that in there.
tessframe: That's so great. Thank you so much. Yeah. I don't know if you need to hop off, but yeah.
Kaelynn Priest: We'll be fine
tessframe: I was gonna say, so in terms of like how you monetize, if you feel like you've reached the point where, okay, I do wanna monetize, so much information out there. But I will tell you, I have monetized by doing... I've taken brand deals. I've done content,
Kaelynn Priest: Yes
tessframe: and I have developed physical and digital products to sell. And sometimes there are other collaborations that you can do with different brands and stuff, like that look different. There's a lot of different ways that you can customize the monetization of your channel. And I think it just what it comes down to is what do you feel good about? What feels like a proper value to you? You should be getting paid for services that you're providing for other companies, and other people [00:49:00] should be paying you. Or, you know, like you should be getting paid for, sorry, for like videos that you create and services you're providing, but then also for products you create and provide, and that intellectual property like you were saying.
Kaelynn Priest: Yep
tessframe: It's there's, it's an ocean of oppo-
Kaelynn Priest: really is. There's so many options, and I was like, I would even add to that, like, you could create an accountability group for something, for whatever you wanna create it for. It could be an accountability group for scripture study. I, you know, it could be an accountability group for exercise and health and fitness.
There's a lot. Like, the sky is pretty much the limit. And I'm so glad you brought that up because I think a lot of... I think there's a lot of ladies that have pretty sizable audiences who may or may not have a block around, like, "Is it okay for me to make money?" So hopefully we've crossed that bridge. And then, how do I make the money?
So I love what you brought up, especially if you've got a sizable audience, get those brand deals, girl. Get the Everly tank. Get
tessframe: I'm
wearing it right now. [00:50:00]
Kaelynn Priest: Get your favorite product, whether it's from an LDS creator, an LDS brand or not, and share about it. You should be being compensated for the ~visibility you are...~
~The free ~visibility you are giving them, you should be compensated for. UGC digital products, those are all s- just great ways
tessframe: There was a really funny thing that happened last year. Right around the time that I first started talking about the church on my page exclusively, I remember seeing a couple posts go viral about like, "The church is paying influencers," and it was this big psycho craze. Everyone was like, "What?" All the anti-Mo's are like,
Kaelynn Priest: உம்
tessframe: that's so unethical."
And I'm sitting there like, "No, they're not," first of all. But second of all, if they were, is paying them less ethical than not paying
Kaelynn Priest: Exactly
tessframe: Like,- it was just interesting and, what's funny, what I have learned since then is that the church, they're not in the... like I said, the [00:51:00] church is not in the business of buying testimonies.
They are not paying people to bear testimony. But they are paying professionals for services. So there are
Kaelynn Priest: உம்
tessframe: videographers who work for the church. So then they see online that there are people with significant LDS followings who already talking about it because they believe it, and they collaborate with these people to create user-generated content around like, "If you're looking for a local missionary or a loc- you know, a local church, meet with your local missionaries.
Click the link below to learn more." It's a simple video. You're not bearing a testimony, but they are paying you for your service as a video creator. So they are actually doing that. I learned that since then, and I have gotten paid by the church to do
Kaelynn Priest: So cool
tessframe: But the reason that they asked me, and they knew that would be a good fit, was because I already do it for free. You know? So, and I already bear my testimony online, and they didn't buy my testimony from me. They bought my services as a
video creator.
Kaelynn Priest: [00:52:00] So good.
tessframe: It's
Kaelynn Priest: a good distinction
tessframe: yeah, you just, you have to learn to articulate those distinctions as you figure out where that line
Kaelynn Priest: Yeah, exactly. And I think it's like, like you said, the... I like identifying it like a service or even like a skill or an expertise. I don't have the expertise of how to have 100,000 followers, and that's why I don't, right? Like, there is some skill and expertise and time invested in that. Takes a long time to grow an audience like that most of the time, and maybe you've invested in a course to learn, right?
Like, it's... I would identify that as either a skill or a service that you provide, and so you should be compensated.
Hey, it's kaelynn here. I hope you loved this episode of the By Their Fruits podcast. Thank you so much for listening. And I also wanna let you know that if you did love this episode, you might also love my weekly email series that I call Book of Mormon Business. Every week, I write a little insight about something that I either have learned or am learning from the Book of [00:53:00] Mormon or the Bible about how to run a business with God's help, how to make God the co-founder of my business.
And if that sounds like something up your alley, go to kaelynnpriest.com/bookofmormon. The link is also below in the show notes. And get on the email list, and I hope these little weekly insights lift your spirits and help you feel the spirit and hear Him more easily in your business
